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My first conversation with Michael Levin, a developmental biologist revolutionizing how we think about cellular collective, agency, and life in general. One of those conversations where I feel we dive deep and only scratch the surface, at the same time: nested agents, birth, aging, and death, third person and first person science. Related episodes: Kevin Mitchell: • #24 Kevin Mitchell: free agency Embodied AI: • #22 Embodied AI with Giuseppe Paolo and Jo... Alexander Ororbia: • #20 Alexander Ororbia: mortal computing, i... Baudouin Saintyves: • #14 Baudouin Saintyves: modular robotics, ... Laura Desiree Di Paolo: • #13 Laura Desiree Di Paolo: Active inferen... Anna Riedl: • #12 Anna Riedl: AI and rationality Anna Ciaunica: • #7 Anna Ciaunica: embodied cognition and d... Giuseppe Paolo: • #1 Giuseppe Paolo: agency in AI, reinforce... 00:00 Intro. 04:11 Agency. Cellular cognition. How to prompt cells? 18:45 Nested agency. Interpenetrating ecosystems, vertical and horizontal. The life of persistent patterns. 23:46 Nested cognitive light cones: how do goals grow in collective agents? 31:34 What do the parts think about the whole? How does higher level meaning manifests itself at lower levels? The shamanistic method of first-person "science". 38:33 Why do we die? Layered ontology and Bard's process and event: the dynamics of nested agents. Birth, death, self-transformation. Psychological theory of aging. Vervaeke's reciprocal narrowing. I, scientist blog: https://balazskegl.substack.com Twitter: / balazskegl Artwork: DALL-E Music: Bea Palya / @beapalyaofficial