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Consumers feel terrible… but they keep spending. In this Macro Talk conversation, Mark Mathews (NRF Chief Economist) breaks down the biggest disconnect in the U.S. economy: weak consumer sentiment vs. resilient retail sales. Mark and Hope cover what retail data is revealing that other economic lenses can miss, why sentiment has become more about prices than income, and what would actually flip the economy into a more fragile phase. We also dig into tariffs, why many retailers absorbed costs, how “K-shaped” spending shows up by income, and why business investment matters more than most people think when recessions hit. Key themes: o “Spend vs. sentiment” and why it’s happening o How much retail growth is inflation vs. real demand o Lower-income squeeze vs. higher-income momentum o Why retailers can’t “just go luxury” overnight o What could make the hard data finally catch the soft data o Alternative data: card data, Retail Monitor, GDPNow o 2026 outlook: moderating growth, jobless recovery, AI everywhere Subscribe for more interviews connecting the dots across business, labor, and the economy. Chapters 00:00 When sentiment this low usually signals recession 00:51 What retail sees about the economy that others miss 01:03 The consumer is the bright spot in GDP 03:33 “Resilient, surprising, momentum” 04:30 Who’s driving spending: top earners + limits of “go luxury” 05:02 The spend/sentiment dichotomy + “best value wins” 06:15 Why retailers absorbed tariff costs 08:20 Inflation vs. real growth in retail sales 09:50 Why services inflation cooled: housing/rents 12:07 Why the economy needs fewer jobs now 12:49 Policy uncertainty freezes hiring + capex 13:54 Is AI capex replacing talent investment? 14:41 Business investment drives recessions more than consumers 16:00 What labor economists miss: sentiment as an inflation gauge 19:20 Could sentiment still trigger behavior change? 22:39 What would make soft data catch hard data (wages + unemployment) 24:56 The real alarm: unemployment toward 5%+ 26:53 Government data gaps + why alternative data matters 29:08 Retail Monitor vs. Census: correlation + data quality 33:27 Favorite alternative data sources 36:37 Checking 2025 predictions: AI agents + live shopping 38:07 2026 headwinds/tailwinds: uncertainty, wealth effects 41:34 Is retail a leading indicator? (Mark says lagging) 44:17 Demographics + Gen Z/Gen Alpha shifts 46:35 Three words for the 2026 economy