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We often design policies, products, and public programs as if people are rational, consistent, and predictable. They’re not. In this episode of Wired for Change, Amy Yee sits down with applied behavioral scientist Pauline Kabitsis to explore how behavioral science is evolving — from simple “nudges” to systems-level design in public health. Together, they unpack: What behavioral science actually is (and common misconceptions) Why information alone rarely changes behavior The limits of nudging — and what comes next How systems thinking reshapes public health interventions The ethics of influencing behavior What leaders need to successfully apply behavioral science Pauline shares powerful real-world examples from her work with the World Food Programme in Mozambique and UNICEF in El Salvador — illustrating what happens when programs are designed with communities instead of simply for them. From food insecurity and migration safety to policy design and organizational change, this episode explores how understanding human behavior in context can unlock more sustainable, measurable impact. If you care about public health, digital transformation, policy innovation, or human-centered design — this conversation is for you. Chapters 00:00 – Introduction: Designing for real humans 02:15 – What behavioral science is (and isn’t) 06:40 – The IKEA effect & operational transparency 10:30 – Why calorie labels can backfire 14:50 – From nudges to systems thinking 19:20 – Applying behavioral science in public health 23:00 – Ethics, sludge, and social engineering 29:45 – World Food Programme case study (Mozambique) 42:30 – Measuring behavioral impact 46:45 – UNICEF migration safety redesign 58:00 – Leadership mindset & testing culture 1:06:00 – Building behavioral science inside organizations 1:10:00 – What’s next for behavioral science