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#408

Jeff and Jim welcome Joseph Carson, cybersecurity expert and host of the Security by Default podcast, for a conversation on AI in offensive and defensive security. Joseph shares the real-world incident that inspired his EIC keynote - watching two AI agents negotiate a ransomware payment live. He breaks down how attackers use unconstrained models to lower the skill barrier and accelerate data exfiltration. The conversation covers NATO Lock Shields, the world's largest live cyber defense exercise, identity as national critical infrastructure, and the EU AI Act's risk-based approach. Also: Estonia's AI tax agents, the energy cost of being polite to AI, and the Tamagotchi theory of human-AI relationships. Connect with Joseph:   / josephcarson   NATO Locked Shields: https://ccdcoe.org/exercises/locked-s... Security by Default podcast (Spotify): https://open.spotify.com/show/0mzN5M5... Connect with us on LinkedIn: Jim McDonald:   / jimmcdonaldpmp   Jeff Steadman:   / jeffsteadman   Visit the show on the web at http://idacpodcast.com TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Welcome and intro 03:02 Conference season and IDAC discount codes 04:19 Introducing Joseph Carson and Security by Default 10:18 Optimist or pessimist on identity security 12:30 AI vs. AI - origin of the concept 15:02 Watching two AI agents negotiate a ransomware payment 17:26 The Tamagotchi metaphor for human-AI relationships 19:07 Who is winning the AI cyber arms race 21:00 How AI accelerates attacker capabilities 23:09 Dark web LLMs and bypassing guardrails 26:36 The energy cost of being polite to AI 28:15 Agentic AI skills, campaigns, and the Matrix analogy 31:34 Estonia AI agents filing tax returns 35:14 Introducing NATO Lock Shields 37:00 Protecting a simulated nation from 8,500 cyber attacks 38:08 Why identity is national critical infrastructure 41:18 AI in Lock Shields before and after 43:05 Lock Shields 2025 scoring explained 47:04 The EU AI Act - is it the next GDPR 50:18 Risk-based approach to AI regulation 53:35 Closing thoughts and cautious optimism 54:21 Scuba diving vs. snowboarding 58:05 Wrap-up KEYWORDS AI vs AI, agentic AI, identity security, NATO Lock Shields, EU AI Act, Joseph Carson, Security by Default, ransomware, dark web LLMs, guardrails, data exfiltration, phishing, critical infrastructure, Estonia, cyber defense, IDAC, Identity at the Center, Jeff Steadman, Jim McDonald