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In this episode, Brandon Polite (Knox College | he/him) talks with Brian Soucek (University of California, Davis | he/him) about his book, Permitting Art: Visual Arts and the First Amendment on the Streets of New York (Cabinet Books, 2024 | https://www.cabinetmagazine.org/books...) The conversation begins with Soucek's motivation for writing the book, which was rooted in his interest in the intersection of law and aesthetics beyond intellectual property. He highlights the legal challenges faced by artists vending on New York streets, focusing on First Amendment and Equal Protection claims. We then discuss the pivotal case Bery v. City of New York (1995), where artists argued that selling art on the streets was integral to their expression and should be protected like written materials. Soucek explains how the Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the artists, expanding their rights to sell paintings, photographs, and other visual media without permits, reshaping street vending laws in New York City. The conversation transitions to subsequent legal battles, including Mastrovincenzo v. City of New York, where graffiti artists argued for similar protections for painted t-shirts and hats. Soucek critiques their legal strategy, noting their failure to argue that street vending was integral to their message—a compelling point for graffiti artists whose medium is deeply tied to urban spaces. This omission, combined with their contradictory claims of commercial success in galleries, led the court to rule against them. Soucek contrasts this outcome with Bery, underscoring how courts avoided “retail” judgments on individual works’ expressiveness by instead protecting traditional artistic mediums. Broadening the discussion, Soucek then considers the tension between medium-specific legal protections and the challenges of defining art. He provides motivations for the view that courts shouldn't be in the business of defining "art," even while needing to play a role in enforcing laws surrounding particular artistic mediums. We conclude by connecting legal debates surrounding art in New York City to broader legal trends, such as claims of artistic exemption in cases like Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission (2018). Soucek critiques attempts to frame all creative endeavors -- from cakes to retail stores like Abercrombie and Fitch -- as “art,” noting the risks this poses to anti-discrimination laws. He argues that medium-based protections, while backward-looking, offer a practical and historically grounded approach. By focusing on materiality and what he calls "expressive efficiency," Soucek contends that these protections avoid the pitfalls of defining “art" while recognizing the unique characteristics of traditional forms. Additional References: Brian Soucek, "The Constitutional Irrelevance of Art," North Carolina Law Review (2021): https://scholarship.law.unc.edu/nclr/... Dominic McIver Lopes, Beyond Art (Oxford University Press, 2016) Chapters: 0:00 Introductions 0:20 Motivations 4:00 Bery v. City of New York 9:50 Why Courts Have Privileged Words 14:39 Why Sell Art on the Street? 24:14 Mastrovincenzo v. City of New York 33:29 The Court & Defining "Art" 44:47 The Masterpiece Cakeshop Case 53:37 Conclusion SUBSCRIBE TO THIS CHANNEL https://www.youtube.com/c/Philosopher... Subtitles & audio edited by Athko Ehrnstein