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Envy is seen as a deadly sin. But not by Professor Sara Protasi, who argues that envy is often good – even *virtuous*. Envy drives progress, she claims. Feeling envious is natural. And without it, we might never leave the couch. But how can such a destructive emotion be morally good? And even if envy makes us more productive in the short term, does it corrode our happiness in the long run? Our conversation covers self-improvement and productivity; self-esteem, radical self-acceptance, and whether we should compare ourselves to others; love, friendship and envy; the politics of envy; inequality; and how racist attitudes may be driven by envy, focussing on racism against Asian Americans. Podcast website for contact details and more: surprisingethics.buzzsprout.com (https://surprisingethics.buzzsprout.com/) Instagram: @surprising_ethics_podcast tinyurl.com/surprisingethics (https://tinyurl.com/surprisingethics)