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In this candid conversation, Susanne and Jac explore the often-unspoken challenges of contemporary spiritual leadership, including how power, status, and competition can shape spiritual spaces and pull teachers away from humility, authenticity, and ongoing human growth. Drawing on personal experience and Jac’s work with the Association for Spiritual Integrity, they highlight the importance of accountability, self-honesty, and deep integration in spiritual teaching, as well as the risks of over-identifying with the role of teacher. Throughout, Susanne and Jac invite both teachers and students to embrace imperfection, honor their humanity, and integrate awakening into everyday life with courage, discernment, and integrity. ~ Connect with Jac O'Keeffe: https://www.jac-okeeffe.com (courses and private sessions). Association for Spiritual Integrity: https://www.spiritual-integrity.org (support for spiritual leaders). Join Susanne's next monthly online meeting: https://susannemarie.org/events/ Sign up for Susanne's email community news: http://eepurl.com/b2_vTL Inquire about a mentoring session: https://susannemarie.org/sessions/ ******* Chapters: 0:00 Introduction to preliminary themes. 2:00 Jac speaks about power, responsibility, & accountability. 4:40 Growing discernment in regard to spiritual leaders & students. 7:20 Ego traps, pitfalls, and projections. 12:50 The importance of humility & earth school. 17:40 Evolution of human growth. 25:00 Agenda for power & followers. 26:00 Association of Spiritual Integrity (ASI). 29:30 The myth of perfection. 32:00 Competition within life and spirituality. 36:00 Susanne speaks about the playing out of hierarchy at a spiritual conference. 43:00 What is being left out of the conversation? 45:00 Going to the root of masculine/feminine imbalance. 54:30 Jac speaks about the importance of the marination phase as a teacher. 58:10 Teachers not walking their talk. 59:40 Susanne on finding her voice over time & Jac: Have the courage to break free. #spirituality #power #freedom #integrity #spiritualawakening #evolution #transformation #ethics