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Artificial intelligence isn’t alive. But our belief that it is may be the most dangerous illusion of all. Tech leaders talk about AI as if it thinks for itself. But that fantasy hides a more nuanced story about people, power, and profit. In this episode of Futurology, musician and technologist Jaron Lanier joins Futurology Producer Grant Slater to explain why treating AI as a creature, rather than a tool, lets corporations own the work of millions and silence the humans behind the code. Lanier argues that every algorithm is built from borrowed human creativity — the songs, stories, and patterns we’ve already made. The way forward, he says, is to restore data dignity: valuing people for the music and meaning they create, instead of worshipping the machines that remix it. Chapters Introduction — 0:00 Early Musical Upbringing — 2:45 Jaron’s Album from 1994 — 8:30 History of Music — 11:15 Avant-Garde and Fluxist Music — 25:11 Post-Symbolic Communication and Early Virtual Reality — 28:14 Russian Futurism — 35:35 Clara Rockmore and Leon Theremin — 36:50 What Is Consciousness? — 43:22 Why Is AI Not Conscious? — 50:18 The Turing Test — 51:59 Data Dignity vs. Universal Basic Income — 57:00 Siren Servers — 1:01:33 What Makes for an Abundant Creative Economy? — 1:09:01 MIDs- Mediators of Individual Data — 1:12:32 Downsides of AI and Music — 1:20:21 Upsides of AI and Music — 1:28:51 Khene Performance — 1:39:38 https://www.jaronlanier.com/ Resources Who Owns the Future — Jaron Lanier (2013) https://www.simonandschuster.com/book... The Dawn of the New Everything — Jaron Lanier (2017) https://books.google.com/books/about/... Vers la flamme — Alexander Scriabin • Scriabin Vers la flamme, Op.72 (Horowitz) “A Blueprint for a Better Digital Society”--Jaron Lanier and E. Glen Weyl (2018) https://hbr.org/2018/09/a-blueprint-f... Alan Turing’s “Computing Machinery and Intelligence” (Mind, 1950) — alluded to in the discussion of the Turing Test https://courses.cs.umbc.edu/471/paper... Instruments of Change — Jaron Lanier (album, 1994, PolyGram) https://www.jaronlanier.com/album.html Fantasia — Walt Disney (1940 film; Hewlett-Packard built its first synthesizer for it) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasi...) Snow Crash — Neal Stephenson (1992 novel) https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Crash-Nea... Want to share suggestions or feedback? Email futurology@berggruen.org Keep up to Date with the Berggruen Institute at: Instagram: / futurologypod Twitter/X: https://x.com/FuturologyPod Bsky: https://bsky.app/profile/futurologypo... https://www.berggruen.org Instagram: / berggrueninst Twitter/X: https://x.com/berggrueninst Facebook: / berggrueninst LinkedIn: / berggrueninst Credits Producers: Grant Slater, Alex Gardels, Nathalia Ramos Associate Producer: Elissa Mardiney Mixing & Mastering: Aaron Bastinelli Theme Music: Marcus Bagala Special Thanks: Heather Mason, Olivia de Rienzo, Carly Migliori, Nick Goddard