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This discussion between Miki Kashtan and Sarah Peyton is about interpersonal neurobiology and how we can apply it to liberation attempts from systemic patterns of oppression and injustice. Some of the contents of this discussion are: -- fight, flight, freeze states, and how they differ from engaged social states; differences in how people respond when in fear state or in safety; possible correlation to being conservative or liberal. -- Two kinds of needs: those that involve connection / relationship and those that are protective (move away from people). -- It is generally harder to offer empathy for a SAFETY need. What if we rename it as two needs: need for basic wellbeing and need for trust; may ease this difficulty. -- left / right hemisphere processing; wanting to value BOTH “head” and “heart” -- wanting both (integration). -- (NVC’s) integration of both wanting something fully and non-attachment to outcome -- (Aspects of) human and mammalian development -- what is biological (to our species) Vs what is patterned by our individual trauma / experience - What is empathy? “Intellectual” empathy or more “emotional” empathy- Is there empathy that is “too” emotional?