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Jerod is joined by Carson Gross, the creator of htmx –a small, zero-dependency JavaScript library that he says, "completes HTML as a hypertext". Carson built it because he's big on hypermedia, he even wrote a book called Hypermedia Systems. Carson has a lot of strong opinions weakly held that we dive into in this conversation. SUBSCRIBE: RSS: https://changelog.fm/rss Apple: https://changelog.fm/apple Spotify: https://changelog.fm/spotify Android: https://changelog.fm/android Overcast: https://changelog.fm/overcast Email: https://changelog.fm/email X: https://x.com/changelog Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/changelog.com Mastodon: https://changelog.social/@changelog SPONSORS: Retool - **Assemble your elite AI team**, arm them with powerful custom tools, and watch them make your to-do list disappear. Start for free or book a demo at retool.com/agents https://retool.com/agents Depot - *10x faster builds? Yes please.* Build faster. Waste less time. Accelerate Docker image builds, and GitHub Actions workflows. Easily integrate with your existing CI provider and dev workflows to save hours of build time. https://depot.dev Outshift by Cisco - AGNTCY is an open source collective building the Internet of Agents. It's a collaboration layer where AI agents can communicate, discover each other, and work across frameworks. For developers, this means standardized agent discovery tools, seamless protocols for inter-agent communication, and modular components to compose and scale multi-agent workflows. https://agntcy.org LINKS: https://htmx.org/ https://htmx.org/essays/why-gumroad-d... https://htmx.org/essays/codin-dirty/ https://htmx.org/essays/vendoring/ https://hypermedia.systems/ CHAPTERS: 00:00 Start the show! 00:49 Getting htmx attention 05:43 Viewpoint origins 09:14 Hypermedia distilled 11:32 Why html lacks 15:24 What htmx adds 20:02 Echoes of jQuery 26:06 Gumroad didn't choose htmx 33:07 Making money 37:59 Codin' dirty 43:05 Big functions 57:06 If/else over polymorphism 59:15 Pattern matching 1:02:21 Vendoring 1:05:36 Big opportunity 1:11:26 htmx 2.0 1:13:54 Connecting with Carson