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In this thought-provoking episode, Will Brehm speaks with Christian Ydesen, professor of history of education and education policy analysis at the University of Zurich, about the evolving landscape of global education governance. Ydesen challenges conventional binary thinking about international organizations, moving beyond simplistic narratives that view them as either neutral platforms or tools of Western hegemony. Instead, Ydesen proposes a more nuanced, relational understanding of how international organizations wield power through measurement infrastructures, governing by numbers, and what he calls "permanent crisis" narratives. The conversation explores how AI and neuroscience are reshaping educational knowledge production, the rise of alternative international organizations like BRICS, and the urgent need for deliberative regeneration as the world approaches the post-2030 development agenda. 📚 KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED: • Beyond binary thinking: Rethinking international organizations as neither neutral nor omnipotent • Power through measurement: How governing by numbers 2.0 shapes global education • AI's epistemic impact: The black box problem in educational knowledge production • Totalizing knowledge claims: The risks of neuroscience and genetic approaches dominating education • Decolonial tokenism vs. genuine pluralization in international policy • Poly-crisis and permanent crisis governance in contemporary education • Rising alternative international organizations: BRICS, Shanghai Cooperation, Belt and Road • Post-2030 agenda: Deliberative regeneration and democratizing educational infrastructures ⏱️ TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Introduction 02:52 Beyond binary thinking about international organizations 05:05 How international organizations exercise relational power 06:50 Governing by numbers 2.0 and AI's role 11:17 Do international organizations totalize knowledge claims? 15:31 Governing through permanent crisis in education 18:56 Rise of non-Western international organizations 21:08 Thinking about the post-2030 agenda 24:39 Summer school on global education landscape 26:46 Closing reflections 👤 ABOUT THE GUEST: Christian Ydesen is professor in history of education and education policy analysis at the University of Zurich. He has written extensively on global education governance, focusing on the historical development and contemporary dynamics of international organizations in education. Ydesen's research examines how measurement infrastructures and governing by numbers shape educational policy globally. He advocates for epistemic humility and deliberative regeneration in educational governance. This July, he will be running an international summer school titled "Global Education Landscape: Histories, Theories and Actors" at the University of Zurich, aimed at equipping students to navigate and critically understand the field of global education governance. --- 🎙️ LISTEN TO FRESHED: 🌐 Website: https://freshedpodcast.com/ydesen/ 🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... 🟢 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4w9r6KB... 📱 CONNECT WITH FRESHED: Twitter: @FreshEdPodcast Website: https://freshedpodcast.com --- 💡 ABOUT FRESHED: FreshEd is a weekly podcast exploring critical questions in education research, policy, and practice. With 400+ episodes featuring leading scholars from around the world, FreshEd examines comparative education, higher education policy, international development, critical pedagogy, and educational futures. Hosted by Will Brehm. #Education #EdPodcast #GlobalGovernance #InternationalOrganizations #UNESCO #WorldBank #OECD #EducationPolicy --- FreshEd is an editorially independent podcast. Views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or producers.