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I have had a meditation practice for about 15 years now. I started hoping it would calm me down, and it has. But it’s also made me more aware of the strangeness of my mind. Certain thoughts emerge seemingly out of nowhere. Many of them return again and again. Why? And what relationship should you have to your thoughts when you realize you’re not the one controlling them? Mark Epstein is a psychiatrist and also a Buddhist. He’s spent decades observing the mind through those two distinct traditions, and has written many books that helped build a bridge between them, from his 1995 landmark book, “Thoughts Without a Thinker,” to his latest work, “The Zen of Therapy.” So I thought it would be interesting to talk to him about what he’s learned about the mind after all these decades of observing it. 0:00 Introduction 02:04 What is a thought? 08:30 Freud 10:07 Meditation and the poetics of experience 32:17 The tensions and benefits of therapy 39:40 Trauma and healing 50:40 Desire, love, and “clinging” 55:59 Navigating difficult emotions 01:09:38 Book recommendations Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/08/op... Watch more on @EzraKleinShow Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...