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Will you agree with Nigel and Michael? Plenty of people have reacted to Michael and Nigel's thoughts on electrification over fabric. In this episode Nigel probes Michael on his recent article on the 'Fabric First trap' which covers studies from multiple countries showing that insulating first creates a 'comfort-driven rebound' and that only electrification effectively side steps by directly targeting carbon emissions. Michael suggests that policy and regulation needs to focus on electrification, with fabric improvements in a supporting role. It's a meshwork corker! Michael Barnard guides executives, investors, and policymakers through the complexities of strategic decarbonization, turning future scenarios into actionable insights today. With analysis and publications spanning aviation fuels, maritime propulsion, green cement, sustainable steel, advanced grid storage, vehicle-to-grid integration, and viable hydrogen applications, he grounds strategy in rigorous physics, robust economics, and insightful human dynamics. Michael's global leadership across North America, Asia, and Latin America provides a uniquely international perspective, further enriched by regular publications on innovation, technology trends, strategic business models, and policy frameworks. Nigel Banks, Technical Director (Zero Bills & Low Carbon Homes), Octopus Energy is passionate about improving our homes to benefit our health, our wallets and our planet. Having worked in housing design, construction and manufacturing, he now leads Octopus Energy’s work in making Zero Bills the new standard for housing in the UK and around the world. Octopus Energy uses technology to bring lower and more transparent pricing, better service and more sustainable energy to customers globally.